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 Post subject: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as images
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:17 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:53 pm
Posts: 34
I can't quite seem to be able to use ATR as images on the MyIDE2.
I use the MyIDE tool to copy them but I find that either they don't work (I presume due to the soft OS?!?) or the myidetool doesn't like them [for very small K-BOOT atr it complains they are truncated] and finally I can't seem to know how to swap for multi disk.

Example: of all the Gyruss atr/xex from the pl site collection only v6 seems to work on MyIDE2 but only as a XEX and put it into the FAT32 portion, all the rest both ATR and extracted XEX (launched via FAT32Loader) "crash", except v6 (but because it is a KBOOT the myidetool won't let me import it as image, so only tested the XEX).

Also for "Seven Cities Of Gold" I put disk 1 as image slot 6, and disk 2 as image slot 7, I start it, then it ask me to switch and I do not know what to do, I tried SHIFT-CTRL 1/2/6/7 but neither did anything, how do you swap disks?

Finally is there a list of compatibility/incompatibility? I again presume that most of the issues may be due to the soft OS, in which case would installing R2 be a better and more compatible option?
[if so who can i ask for a preflashed CHIP, keep in mind I have a XEGS so replacing the BIOS may be different and I will need help].

I tried to extract a couple of KBOOT atr via the ATRtool just to find out the EXE crashes (at least when launched from FAT32oader) again it may be a soft OS thing, just tried a couple and got frustrated [same Gyruss atr].

On the bright side I love the R16 support ... whomever thought of it is a genius, literally drag and drop for big games and no need of expensive and intrusive U1M or other mem expansions.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:32 am 
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phoenixdownita wrote:
On the bright side I love the R16 support ... whomever thought of it is a genius, literally drag and drop for big games and no need of expensive and intrusive U1M or other mem expansions.


Thanks :)

I'm busy with family-matters, not being able to reply in extent.
7 citys doesn't work, it disables the soft-OS.
Gyruss, you can zip/upload a non working version?
Shortened ATR's, you need a extra -Toggle in the command-line.

Later,
Sijmen.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:54 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:53 pm
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http://atarionline.pl/v01/index.php?ct= ... uss#Gyruss

Only v6 works from MyIde2.

Also how do you swap atr (for multidisk)? It is SHIFT+CTRL and what (1,2,3,4 or the Image slot number)?

Finally if I decide to go the MyBIOS R2 route will it improve compatibility? [at least is not Soft OS anymore]
And is it easy to install on an XEGS [different ROM chip likely because they added Missile Command]?


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:31 am 
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Hi, :mrgreen:

Swapping disks in image mode is relative.
So when you want disk 1, press shift+control+1.
This will select the image-slot you booted, hence disk #1
This will only work if the MyBIOS is running and some parameters in SRAM valid.
You can include an empty disk in ,say slot #5, for saving.
Remember to enable R/W, since booting in image-mode will select R/Only by default.

I checked v1 and that booted just fine, what firmware are you running (MyBIOS?)
Attached you find a XEX-version patched for MyIDE-][, some while ago

R2 will give you much inprovement for sure.
I designed the OS to be 400/800/1200xl/xl/xe-compatible.
Currently working on version 7, no beta yet, but I fixed some IDE/menu-issues.
Removed the RESET-menu, since that was more a toy for me then functional fully implemented in the OS.... 8)

For a XEGS you need to burn a 27256 (32k) eprom, since the hardware uses basic/missile command in the chip too.
sequence is: basic 8k, missile 8k, BIOS 16k. (from my head)

Later,
Sijmen.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:54 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:53 pm
Posts: 34
I have a MyBIOS (21030105) in the selection screen (the shipping workbook), and it appears to be MyBIOS-F2 4.8.05
[BTW I bought my MyIDE2 like 2 weeks a go and I am using the default workbook that it came with so I didn't flash/reflashed anything else so far, I am still using the default version of whatever MyBIOS/FAT32Loader/MyDOS rescue that was in there]

About those Gyruss here is an interesting tidbit:
v1 atr works from images [I used the -f switch in myidetool to force] but none of the others atr works (v2-v6),
from the same links if I copy the xexs over the fat32 partition only v6 works and v1-v5 do not (with or without myBIOS in memory).
It's a little messed up, maybe worth an investigation: my FAT32Loader is 20130224.
It is possible that the ATR and the XEX are not exactly the same but it is weird.

Finally in my image listing screen of myBIOS I always have bizarre and seemingly random characters around the bottom line where the image slot # currently selected is displayed.
That is the line just above the "ESC Arrows/RETURN joystick .../".
I can see the number 0000 then going to 0001 and so on as I press down but on both sides of said number there's random garbage characters, and the characters are different if I get into MyBIOS holding START or I wait for the MyBIOS screen to show up and then press START. Do I have to do anything here to clear the mess? I did use myidetool to generate the
image manager thing, not sure I understand how that one works either.
[Keep in mind that when I "partitioned" my CF I set the image start space as 3 just so I have as much partition space available, the default would only allow me 3 and 1/2 16MB ATR and I wanted more in case I find more of those big ATR with all the goodies].

I tried the DALLAS game for multidisk ATR and it works fine so I guess the soft OS is causing the grief for my tests
[I found it here viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1385 and I follow the instructions so all good there].

If I were to put R2 on my XEGS can you provide a preprogrammed EPROM with R2?
I am thinking of piggyback R2 on top of the default BIOS chip and put a switch to swap default/R2 as needed, if possible.
[obviously I will pay for your time and material, or maybe you can just prepare a flash file so I can try to acquire/build an USB EPROM flasher]


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:30 am 
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OK, the garbage is a cosmetic-bug, nothing to bother about.

Good to use DALLAS as a test. This also tests the ability of the OS to switch itself back-on.
DALLAS is one of the many games (like 7 cities, that won't revive) that disables the OS and continue with disk-IO.
Disk-IO is patched to revive the OS, one of my nifty tricks to keep the MyBIOS alive :)

All versions of Gyruss are patched one way or another, because it's a 400/800-game that did not run on a XL/XE-system.
So you have to find a version that works anyway.

The latest version is 20130106, F2-4.8.06 found on the MyBIOS-current version topic.
Better use that version since it also fixed a bug in the X: device-routines.

I'm working again on version #7 after 6 month of 'no fun anymore' after a massive argument with one of the beta-testers. :(
If you want I can send you beta's when ready using p.m.

Last: the ROM-version of MyBIOS.
Sure I can burn and send you a EPROM, but not sure if this is a wise decision now.
For XEGS, I mostly burn a 64k with a jumper-pack to select original or MyBIOS.
You can replace the jumper by an external-switch of course.
But if you want I can burn a 32k EPROM also, no problem.
This will be version R2-4.8.06, since this is the latest stable version uploaded here on the forum.

Cheers,
Sijmen.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:12 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:53 pm
Posts: 34
mr-atari wrote:
OK, the garbage is a cosmetic-bug, nothing to bother about.

OK, I'll ignore it then until a fix but as long as it does not have functional impact I'm fine with it.

mr-atari wrote:
Good to use DALLAS as a test. This also tests the ability of the OS to switch itself back-on.
DALLAS is one of the many games (like 7 cities, that won't revive) that disables the OS and continue with disk-IO.
Disk-IO is patched to revive the OS, one of my nifty tricks to keep the MyBIOS alive :)

Nice to know, I just wanted to make sure I understood the CRTL+SHIFT+# used a relative # ;-)

mr-atari wrote:
All versions of Gyruss are patched one way or another, because it's a 400/800-game that did not run on a XL/XE-system.
So you have to find a version that works anyway.

Didn't know that but I find it fascinating that v1 works as ATR from MyBIOS images but not as XEX from FAT32Loader, the opposite is true instead for v6, I was hoping that if it works it works no matter how you load it .... guess I was wrong.

mr-atari wrote:
The latest version is 20130106, F2-4.8.06 found on the MyBIOS-current version topic.
Better use that version since it also fixed a bug in the X: device-routines.

The only way I have to flash anything at all is to use the FAT32Loader flasher, and as you stated it can brick the card, should I take the plunge or should I wait for a new shipping workbook with the new MyBIOs ... as of now 4.8.06 is still test right?

mr-atari wrote:
I'm working again on version #7 after 6 month of 'no fun anymore' after a massive argument with one of the beta-testers. :(
If you want I can send you beta's when ready using p.m.

I personally "learn by argument", I understand it's a little frustrating on my colleagues but it works as long as it doesn't become personal and it is geared towards the bettering of a product ... I do not know the specific I just hope it doesn't become a cock fight based on pride rather than merits, but nice to know you're still improving your creation.

mr-atari wrote:
Last: the ROM-version of MyBIOS.
Sure I can burn and send you a EPROM, but not sure if this is a wise decision now.

Why is it not a wise decision? Should I wait for a better version?

mr-atari wrote:
For XEGS, I mostly burn a 64k with a jumper-pack to select original or MyBIOS.
You can replace the jumper by an external-switch of course.
But if you want I can burn a 32k EPROM also, no problem.

I'm not sure I follow you here, without assistance I wouldn't know how to proceed, my plan was to simply ground VCC from the onboard BIOS but I suspect I may also have to ground the /CE signal and maybe something else ... in any case I will need quite some help to pull this off, like schematics of what to solder where (it looks like the 27256 is not a simple extension [pin wise] of the 2732/2764, main difference within 27256 and 2764 seems to be pin27 27256=A14 2764=/PGM, but I guess it only means that if use a 2764 I simply tie it to VCC).

I guess 2764 seems to be an easier choice as it's closer to be pin compatible. I am not even sure what does the XEGS have on board.
I'll think about it, do you have an idea on how much more compatibility I will get with the R2? Obviously games that swap in/out the OS to use the RAM will work now as long as they don't try to bypass the SIO routines and that should be the winner, do I understand this right?

Thanks for all the help so far, your help is greatly appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:35 am 
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4.8.06 is the last stable upload so not a test, it's in the current MyBIOS post.
Yesterday I tested the cntrl-F function to flash the cartridge from FAT32, that works nicely :)

Since I'm working on a new/improved version: the remark about wise decision.
The Soft-OS version works good enough to postpone installing a hard-OS.

About the OS-chip, it's pin compatible with a 27256 (32k eprom).
So you can solder the current out, install a socket and install the new one.
Normally I use a chip twice the size and include an original OS (just in-case you need it).
I bend one pin up and pull that up. With a jumper/switch to ground you can select OS-1 or OS-2
(If you are going to do more programming, a burner will set you back around 40$)


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:19 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:53 pm
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I only found this link download/file.php?id=1298 and the file is called TEST that is why I thought it's a test.
I managed to flash it thru CTRL-F and it worked, the cosmetic-bug seems to be gone, nice work there allowing self flashing.
Small issue, I can;t get basic to work, I boot into MyBIOS, the Reset menu then B, something comes up but if I digit LIST I get all 0 on the screen, if I type AUTO it locks, is it a known issue?

For the hard OS I guess a 27512 is the right choice as I want them both as you suggested, but I have not found a complete dump of the XEGS BIOS, only pieces of it. Do you have a complete one that you can share?

I was hoping that I could just take the original XEGS dump and simply replace the correct 16KB with R2 and use that [leaving BASIC, missile command and whatever slingshot code they have where it is]. Not sure it will work though as I do not know where the XEGS code to switch based on keyboard present/absent is loacted if it is in where R2 has to be copied over then I will lose the switching capability but if I have both on same EPROM with the switch I will be fine.

Anyway what kind of advantage should I expect from R2? Is there a list of games that have issue with soft OS that I can check? I guess that for games that bypass the OS for SIO access there's nothing R2 can do but how many there really are?

Finally I am really bad in desoldering chips out of motherboards I always end up having to cut them and remove the pins one by one and obviously throw away the chip in the process, I haven't yet figured out how to do it cleanly, I do not have a hot air station, what equipment do you suggest I use? I really want to try to socket all the XEGS chips to practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:37 am 
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Ah, yes, I forgot the #6 version has the BASIC toggle-bug......
With the reset-menu, then B it should normally work.
It just toggles the PIA-bit to enable the internal BASIC to be active.
Error-codes or locking-up is strange indeed. Should not happen.
Either you go back to #5, stay at #6 or try the beta #7 (when ready).

Advantage of the R2 is that more games work, I have no list.
I played with seven cities yesterday and found it has a complete SIO-routine of it's own.
That's why it won't continue loading from CF, the shift_control_number works though, but
by-passing the core-SIO is the problem.

Soldering and desoldering is almost an art.
I use a hot-air-gun to remove chips, this is a progress you must learn, best not on an actual project ;)
After removing I let the PCB cool a bit and with a tooth-pick/tin-sucker clean the holes.
The trick is to remove the chip when all the solder is soft. Early pulling will result in pulled via-holes,
(the tubes that connect top/bottom-layer) damaging the PCB to a not working state...

I have all files needed, just say what you need and I'll upload.
Perhaps need some time to find them, but I have them.... 8)
XEGS-OS is also 16k, chip is 32k to include 8k-basic and 8k-missile command.
The R2 does not detect keyboard and has no clue if it runs a XEGS-board, so you loose
missile-command from this side of view. The code is still there, but the OS won't toggle the
PIA-bit to enable it. In theory, you can write a small code loaded from MyIDE-][ to start
the game.

Later,
Sijmen.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:37 am 
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I'm planning to send you a beta #7 by p.m. later this week.
Are there any programs you like to add to the workbook?
Here is a screenshot how the current version I work with looks like.

Currently re-writing the manual.
There are some cool additions to the IMAGE-menu and MYIDE-menu :)


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:14 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:53 pm
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Only thing I would like actually is the possibility to get ATR from FAT32 into image/partition space of the CF accessible via MyBios. Basically a way to copy ATR from FAT32Loader into the partition/image space so troubled ATRs can be copied over for better compatibility, also it will allow to have the whole process be done from the Atari and only need a PC to write on the CF FAT32 portion (which does not need myidetool, simple drag and drop)
I do not know how easy/hard that would be though.

To reiterate the BIOS questions, an R2 bios should "fix" games that don't play well with Soft OS but we're not sure how many of those there really are, is that right?
Also if the game/app has custom SIO access there's no help from R2, do I understand this right?

Regarding desoldering I think I want to try the heat gun method, I didn't think of that and heat guns are quite cheap (20$) instead desoldering kits start at 180$ .... anything special I should know before I venture in it? [I really do not have spare old hardware to practice with, maybe I can find a non working motherboard somewhere to mess with for cheap first]

Last, I cannot play moon patrol, it's a 4KB rom but I can't find a way to make the game start, I can see the start screen but that's it, is it a known MyBIOS/MyIDE2 issue?


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:16 am 
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phoenixdownita wrote:
Only thing I would like actually is the possibility to get ATR from FAT32 into image/partition space of the CF accessible via MyBios. Basically a way to copy ATR from FAT32Loader into the partition/image space so troubled ATRs can be copied over for better compatibility, also it will allow to have the whole process be done from the Atari and only need a PC to write on the CF FAT32 portion (which does not need myidetool, simple drag and drop)
I do not know how easy/hard that would be though.

That goes beyond my scoop of programming. Strange to say from a guy who can write a OS..... :o
B.T.W. the myidetool has a windows overlay called "MyIDE Drive Manager" :mrgreen:

phoenixdownita wrote:
To reiterate the BIOS questions, an R2 bios should "fix" games that don't play well with Soft OS but we're not sure how many of those there really are, is that right?
Also if the game/app has custom SIO access there's no help from R2, do I understand this right?

Games with custom SIO don't run on either systems loaded from IDE.
They still work when loaded from disk though.
R2 will fix all games that use the 16k OSRAM normally occupied by the SOFT-OS.

phoenixdownita wrote:
Regarding desoldering I think I want to try the heat gun method, I didn't think of that and heat guns are quite cheap (20$) instead desoldering kits start at 180$ .... anything special I should know before I venture in it? [I really do not have spare old hardware to practice with, maybe I can find a non working motherboard somewhere to mess with for cheap first]

A cheap tin-sucker is well worth the money and a clamping-tool to hold the PCB vertical.
And a bucket-load of wooden toothpicks.

phoenixdownita wrote:
Last, I cannot play moon patrol, it's a 4KB rom but I can't find a way to make the game start, I can see the start screen but that's it, is it a known MyBIOS/MyIDE2 issue?

ROM's can normally loaded from FAT32 or from the cartridge-FLASH-menu.
This is what I have to check. 4k you say? Moonpatrol should be 16k.
Also 4k files won't be loaded, since they don't match cartridge-specification.
Please zip and upload the BIN/ROM-file for testing.

I'm going to give seven cities a second look-over. Perhaps I can simply change the internal SIO by a JMP SIOV.... 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:28 am 
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After 2 hours of hacking...... :twisted:

Seven Cities is not easy, it uses a encryption to load code into memory.
But Altirra is an amazing emulator to do this kind of work! 8)

What I have done is patched the encrypted code to use JMP SIOV instead of the internal SIO.
Seems to work on MyIDE-][, MyBIOS F2 now.
:roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Help with using multi disk ATR or ATR in general as imag
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:15 pm 

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Forget about Moon patrol it was my mistake.

I'll give seven Cities a spin .... I hope you don't get mad but it was just one recommended game that I tried, from one of the top 100 lists.

Anyway Gyruss myIde2 fix has an horribly screeching sound, the atr of v1 run as mybios image has cheats and it seems to be fully working, the v6 (from XEX FAT32loader) works but it is buggy and from time to time there's nothing to shot on the screen and yet the stage won't end until you die, pretty annoying.
So for now I can only play v1 from images [because the v1 atr is k-boot and FAT32Loader doesn't like it: see my next point]

FAT32Loader doesn't support k-file ATR, can you add a "padding"/force option to load it anyway [like myidetool does when adding it to images space]?

EDIT: tried Seven Cities and it lets me swap disk and start a game but then once I am on the ship just going left, say 30 sec in the sea it locks .... I am not sure it is worth your time for this game but just to complete the test I though of trying.


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