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 Post subject: MyIDE-OS 5.0F BETA (for testing)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:34 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 8:15 am
Posts: 1376
Location: netherlands
Please note this beta-OS is for the external MyIDE+1mbFlash cartridge

This OS uses the faster LBA-mode instead of slower CHS-mode.

OPTION during powerup: do not load OS

OPTION during reset, restarts cartridge.
SELECT during reset, coldstart system.
START during reset, starts image-routine.

Beside this, the same tricks/keys as the 35F OS.
http://www.atarimax.com/flashcart/forum ... .php?t=357

This system works WITHOUT fdisk and is not compatible with previous versions!
So please use ONLY on a blank IDE-device.

Feedback is most welcome.

IDE LAYOUT:
sector $000000 reserved
sector $000001-$00FFFF drive D1: 16Mb, PERCOM for SPARTA supported.
sector $010000-$xxxxx images.
relative sector $0000 of each image: Name of image and density (format unchanged)
image-size is $411 sectors (SD,MD,DD supported)

Cheers,
Sijmen.


Last edited by mr-atari on Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:07 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: New Flash OS 5.0 Beta Comments
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:53 am
Posts: 329
Great Job!

I formatted (FAT) a CF card so as to "blank" it, and then flashed the MyIDE cart. In my tests, it worked perfectly, including the all-important cold start. And unlike the 3.5 (and 4.3) versions, when I ran my backup program to "fill" the vacant drive, it did not slow down as the sector count increased.

With the older OS versions, I can hear the MyIDE slow down above sector 15,000. When you get to 40,000+ it is really noticeable. (Kind of like one of those dreams where you are being chased, but you can only run in slow-motion! :wink: ) This slow-down isn't all that noticeable unless you are doing something like copying a very large file or running a backup program. Mine copies to/from the HD, to/from an APE HD image.

To be specific, using the 3.5F OS, my backup program took 38:55 to fill the HD from the APE image. 5.0 took 31:24, or almost a 20% improvement in throughput! And that is only filling 30,000 of the 60,000 sector partition. If the program had to fill the last half of the drive, there would have been an even larger difference.

I like the fact that the flashing border has been turned off by default. I like the function key combinations. I haven't found anything yet that I didn't work properly, although I'm hopeful that at some point down the road one will be able to use more than one partition on a device via FDISK or some equivalent. BTW, Hias' excellent Ultraspeed patch worked just fine.

-Larry


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:25 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 8:15 am
Posts: 1376
Location: netherlands
Thanks for the feedback. I most appreciate this! :-)

My problem is limited room in the OS and to use as few bytes as possible in RAM.
There for I have choosen for this fixed size setup.
To make the modified OS as compatible as possible.
I also included some 400/800 patches to support old programs.

I could include more partitons of 16Mb giving them a drive number.
You could enter this setup with "Hit HELP to run setup" Like on a PC.
Every drive takes $010000 extra sectors. Being deducted from the
room left for images.

I was thinking to include shift+control+number in the 1 partition setup
to swap the IDE-drive number to the number pressed. With multiple
partitons this can't be done.

Let me know your thoughts about this.

Back later.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:18 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:51 am
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Location: The Netherlands
Hi Sijmen. Great work!
Unfortunately I can't try the new OS since I'm using an internal MyIDE interface (with 32-1 OS) instead of the MyIDE cartridge this version is for.

Using LBA makes the imaging a lot more space efficient :)

Quote:
I could include more partitons of 16Mb giving them a drive number.

That you support only one drive is in my opinion for most people not a problem. The simplicity makes it lots easier to setup the drive compared to the old partition/imaging setup. And when using a Compact Flash card it is easy to use another card if you need more storage space in a regular partition. I use MyIDE mainly for imaging and don't need multiple drives at the same time. (And if I need it I can flash the both the 5 and 4.3 OS in my 32-in-1 OS :D )

However it would be handy to have 16MB images (instead of partitions) so you can make images with a lot of games in .exe form in combination with for example PicoDOS. But this option might be a little bit more awkward to implement in combination with regular 1040 sector images. Maybe it is possible to store in the "bootsector" that the first n partitions are 65536 sector images and the rest 1040 sector images.

Quote:
sector $000000 reserved

Can you store some identifier in the first bytes e.g. MIDE. Then future PC tools can easily recognize a MyIDE formatted flash card reducing the risk of accidentally overwriting non MyIDE disks.
The 3.x/4.x boot sector does not have an ID.

Quote:
sector $000001-$00FFFF drive D1: 16Mb,

Actually 16MB-256 bytes :P
The boot sector is eating 256 bytes from the D1 partition. You should take care then when setting the partition size in MyDOS setting it to 65535 instead of 65536. Actually the image space should start then on sector $010001 to create the biggest possible D1: partition, but I can imagine that it is much easier to let the image space start at sector $010000.

Quote:
I was thinking to include shift+control+number in the 1 partition setup
to swap the IDE-drive number to the number pressed. With multiple
partitons this can't be done.

Like I said, one partition is enough for me. But assigning it another drive number is handy to avoid conflicts with a real 1050 drive set on D1: It takes some effort to change the ID switches in a physical drive :wink:

One thing I was thinking about was the possibility of mounting multiple images for multi-disk games that support multiple drives. But as I can only think of one game (alternate reality) that supports this, you can better forget this remark :wink:

Thanks.

Robert


Last edited by rdemming on Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:48 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:53 am
Posts: 329
> I could include more partitons of 16Mb giving them a drive number.
You could enter this setup with "Hit HELP to run setup" Like on a PC.
Every drive takes $010000 extra sectors. Being deducted from the
room left for images. <

> I was thinking to include shift+control+number in the 1 partition setup
to swap the IDE-drive number to the number pressed. With multiple
partitons this can't be done. <

So this would allow the user to "hot swap" the drive number to make the one physical partition another drive number while (for instance) allowing an APE drive became D1: (or any other valid drive number without disabling the drive)?

Tough choices! In looking at the way I use MyIDE, I guess I'd go for the swapping option -- I swap drives around quite a bit.
-Larry


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:27 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 10:34 am
Posts: 259
Location: NL
Since more people are replying of their wishes and ideas I would reply too here...

Why not combine the partition and the images together?

I'd say: let's work with only ONE partition-LIST on which you store both 16MB and disk-images.

With an external tool (which you can save on image one) you could pick partitions of your list and put them on D1 - D8:

The partition list keeps track of the start and end sector of the partitions, and the names.

This difference between partition and image is in my opinion a confusing thing.

In fact a small partition of only 720 sectors is also a partition.

Sijmen already explained me there are some compatibility issues.
For me personaly 1 16MB partition is not enough.

An option would be:

the ability of setting up as much as possible 16MB partitions, but assigning max. 3. During the run you should be able to swap them, and that's ok for me.

My favorite DOS is SpartaDOS and with MyIDE 3.x, and APE, and my Emulator... I'm using 16MB partitions with all my favorite Demo's, Games, Tools and Music software.

The moment I have to switch images (atr's) all the time, the fun is gone soon here :) But that is personal I think.

By the way... I think there is an important difference between the atari users who always have been using disks, or them who are already known with the use of 16MB partitions.

I have the feeling that people who are not familiar with 16MB partitions, don't see the use of it.

I'd say an universal solution, on which the user could make the decision what he wants to use (images, or large partitions, stored in one partition list) would be the best.

But again I have to say: I think it's important to notice there are limitations due to the fact there is not much space for the MyIDE routine in a compatible OS.

Another solution would be: or an adapted version of a DOS, or a more complicated MyIDE interface, with some kind of micro-controler.
I don't like that: i love the myIDE because of it's simple design.

Ok now the end of my story.
Till now I have only used MyIDE 3.x. Except for the Copy between partitions bug, I really LOVE that version. I did add some custom routines in it (like a forced boot key combination, and made the image routine keyboard controled). So if that copy bug would be out of 3.x This version would be best for me.

Thanks
Marius


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:08 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 8:15 am
Posts: 1376
Location: netherlands
Thanks for the info guys.

I will try include a swap function for the logical partition.
Also I try to include a option for more drives, then the swap is disabled.

Images in this version are not checked by size. So you can format
the first partiton as 16Mb and than not use the next 62 images.
But perhaps I can manage to put in a size-byte to skip them automatically.
I will see.

Image-mode and Partition-mode are 2 separate subroutines of the
IDE-core. Combining them is not a option. The 3.x OS is not supported
anymore, so the bug can not be removed.

The next 4 days we have 30°C so I will defenately spend no time
at the A8 :-)

Cheers,
Sijmen.


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 Post subject: Re: MyIDE-OS 5.0F BETA (for testing)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:34 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 12:21 am
Posts: 251
Hi Sijmen,

mr-atari wrote:
This OS uses the faster LBA-mode instead of slower CHS-mode.


How does the LBA mode work? What's the math involved, setup, etc?

Quote:
IDE LAYOUT:
sector $000000 reserved
sector $000001-$00FFFF drive D1: 16Mb, PERCOM for SPARTA supported.
sector $010000-$xxxxx images.
sector $0000 each of image = name (same format as 35F)
image-size is $411 sectors (SD,MD,DD supported)


I personally like the flexibility of the 4.x system, but I can see the value of making MyIDE more "plug-and-play".

Will you be publishing vectors for your routines like you did with the 4.x versions (which made things very easy for people like myself writing software for MyIDE.)



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 Post subject: Re: MyIDE-OS 5.0F BETA (for testing)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:09 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:51 am
Posts: 68
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Shawn Jefferson wrote:
How does the LBA mode work? What's the math involved, setup, etc?


LBA stands for "Logical Block Addressing". In contrast to CHS that addresses sectors by dividing the disk in (nowadays logical, not physical anymore) Cylinders, Heads and Sectors, LBA considers the disk as one sequential block of sectors. With CHS it involved some complex calculation to get the right sector because every drive has its own number of cylinders, heads and sectors. With LBA addressing it is simple because every drive has 'n' number of sectors addressed from 0 to 'n'. So no address calculation anymore.

In LBA mode the two 8-bit cylinder registers, 8-bit sector register and 4-bit head register are combined to a 28-bit LBA address by setting bit 6 of the head register to 1.

From the ATA-6 standard you also have 48-bit LBA addressing. Here the cylinder and sector registers (not the head register anymore) are written twice to form a 48-bit address. With 28-bit LBA you can address 2^28 sectors or 128GByte. With 48-bit LBA you can address 2^48 sectors or 128 Penta byte (134217728 GByte)
So still some space to grow :P

Wikipedia article about ATA standard.
ATA-6 specifications. (PDF)

Robert



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:02 am 
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LBA has no calculations :-) You just tell (like Robert says) the drive to fetch sector $abbccdd (28 bit).
The first group with abb=000 I used for logical partitioning.
Here I do not need to store information in RAM.

For Images abb<>000, I have assigned $411 sectors (1041 dec) to a image.

I use the Atari-bug (has no sector 0) to use that sector for information.
Same goes for sector $0000000. I want to use this as buffer and config-area.

The OS keeps the ID at $C005
abcxxxyy
a=RAM-OS
b=Ext MyIDE
c=MyIDE OS
xxx=release
yy=version
So this Beta 5.0F has ID 11110100 or $F4

The vectors for HDINIT, HDWRI, HDREA and HDIMA are fixed to
the locations as with 3.x and higher.

Robert, can you tell me what bytes in sector 0 windows like so have so
it recognizes it as a non-dos formatted media? I do not know if this works
since I can only support 8 bit words......
(The in progress 5.0-CF version can handle 512 bytes/sector though)

I'm also working an a other Image-manager, to get 10 image-names before
and 10 image-names after the boot-selection.

But room is tight in the OS, so I have to make compromizes.
I'll ask Mathias for the highspeed-routine, so I can squeeze them in too.

Cheers,
Sijmen.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:08 am 
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mr-atari wrote:
Robert, can you tell me what bytes in sector 0 windows like so have so
it recognizes it as a non-dos formatted media? I do not know if this works
since I can only support 8 bit words......
(The in progress 5.0-CF version can handle 512 bytes/sector though)


On a PC you have two types of boot sectors.
If the storage device is partitioned (e.g. a hard disk but also my Windows formatted CompactFlash card) then you have a "Master Boot Record". This contains:
$0000-$01B7: Boot code
$01B8-$01BB: Optional disk signature (on my hard disk $FE784E43, on my CF it was $00000000)
$01BC-$01BD: $0000
$01BE-$01FD: 4 x 16 bytes for the partition table
$01FE-$01FF: MBR signature always $55AA


If the storage device is not partitioned (e.g. floppy) then you have a "Volume Boot Record". Also the first sector of a separate partition on a partitioned storage device is a Volume Boot Record. This contains:
$0000-$0002: Jump instruction
$0003-$000A: OEM text e.g. "MSDOS5.0"
$000B-$0023: BIOS parameter block
$0024-$01FD: File system (FAT12, FAT16, FAT32, NTFS) specific info + boot code
$01FE-$01FF: Signature always $55AA


So all PC formatted media have in common that the last two bytes of the first sector is $55AA. If you can write all 512 bytes in CF mode, maybe you can keep the bootsector/partition table in PC format but so that the PC only sees that media is completely used by an unaccessible system partition or so. Then use $00000-$01B7 for your own data and signature.

Wikipedia article about "Master Boot Record"
WinHex, an extremely useful Window Sector Editor that can also dissect bootdisks and file system structures.

Robert



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:34 pm 
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rdemming wrote:
If you can write all 512 bytes in CF mode, maybe you can keep the bootsector/partition table in PC format but so that the PC only sees that media is completely used by an unaccessible system partition or so. Then use $00000-$01B7 for your own data and signature.


I did a quick test with changing the MBR on my CompactFlash card. If the last two bytes are not $55AA, then Windows XP asks if you want to format the card as soon as you click on it's drive letter in Windows Explorer.
If the last two bytes are $55AA but you fill the partition table with all zero's (no partitions defined) then Windows XP says: "Please insert a disk into drive 'x'"
Then you can only format the CF card for Windows via the Windows Disk Management (Partition) tool and not via Windows Explorer anymore.

So what behavior would be more desirable if you insert a MyIDE formatted CF card into a PC card reader?

B.T.W. Windows XP formats a uninitialized CF card with a "Volume Boot Record", thus no partitioning information. But my Canon camera formats an uninitialized CF card with a "Master Boot Record" with one partition.

Robert



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:24 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 12:21 am
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Quote:
For Images abb<>000, I have assigned $411 sectors (1041 dec) to a image.

I use the Atari-bug (has no sector 0) to use that sector for information.
Same goes for sector $0000000. I want to use this as buffer and config-area.


So the image information (name, etc..) will be stored in sector 0 instead of the last sector of the image slot like in 4.x. That's a nice space utilization savings!

Maybe you could store a byte (or even a bit) in your config area to allow people to choose 720 or 1040 sectors for images, like you did before.

Quote:
I'm also working an a other Image-manager, to get 10 image-names before
and 10 image-names after the boot-selection.


More useful might be a feature to search the images, or just go to the next image starting with the character you type on the keyboard. Especially with hundreds of images, this is very useful, IMO.



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:07 am 
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Shawn Jefferson wrote:
Quote:
I'm also working an a other Image-manager, to get 10 image-names before
and 10 image-names after the boot-selection.


More useful might be a feature to search the images, or just go to the next image starting with the character you type on the keyboard. Especially with hundreds of images, this is very useful, IMO.


Since ROM space is limited, wouldn't it be better to just install an image loader in the last image (not as DOS file but as boot program to save loading time). Then you can create a super deluxe image loader with search and scroll capabilities since you are not limited to ROM space. Another advantage is that a "soft" image loader can be easily updated unlike the MyIDE OS rom.

If you boot up in image mode, maybe the last image could be automatically booted if the boot sector of the last image contains a special "soft image loader" signature or maybe more efficiently if it is indicated in the MyIDE configuration data in the first sector of the disk. Or more general, store the image number to be auto booted.
This solution would be more flexible and easier than try to cram everything in the MyIDE rom.

Of course, the simple image loader in the MyIDE rom should be still available in case a "soft image loader" is not installed in the last image.

Robert



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:25 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:49 am
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Location: Salzburg, Austria
IMO adding keyboard control to the image loader is sufficient (personally I think it is absolutely necessary as I, like Marius, don't have a joystick connected to my Atari most of the time).

If you put an advanced image loader software into the first slot you may then just press 'enter' to start it.

so long,

Hias


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